In this Longshore Insider Podcast, AEU's Mike Jernigan and Matt Hockman speak with AEU LEAD Director Joe White about behavior-based safety. Learn how emotions play a significant role in whether or not your teams work safely.
Announcer:
Welcome to the Longshore Insider podcast from the American Equity Underwriters. At AEU, we are passionate about helping waterfront employers protect their workers and their businesses. Join us as we explore practical strategies for improving workplace safety, effective claims management, and much more. So let's dive in. Welcome to the Longshore Insider Podcast.
Mike Jernigan:
Hello and thank you for listening to the AEU Longshore Insider podcast. In this series, our focus is safety. Specifically, we're speaking with health and safety experts about what they do to develop and cultivate a culture of safety among their teams and within their organizations. Hello, I'm Mike Jernigan with the American Equity Underwriters. Today I'm joined by loss control manager Matt Hockman, who is here to provide his perspective on AEU's approach to safety. And I'm joined by Joe White, director of AEU LEAD, which is a division of the American Equity Underwriters. Joe, Matt, it's a pleasure to have you guys here.
Joe White:
Thank you.
Matt Hockman:
Thank you for having us.
Mike Jernigan:
So Joe, tell me a little bit about yourself and about your division within AEU. Tell us about AEU LEAD.
Joe White:
Sounds good. Background, I spent about 25 years with DuPont. Majority of that was within safety, primarily in safety, operational safety. But I did have a few years, about 10 years in the consulting division and worked a lot in leadership and in safety as well. Fast-forward to AEU LEAD, the work that we do now is primarily in leadership. We focus almost exclusively on the supervisor front, mid-level managers. And we do some work in safety as well, but it's really about helping prepare them for the integration of the incoming workforce. I don't have to tell you, there's a lot of changes, a lot of differences between the incoming generation and the outgoing generation. So it's really about helping prepare them for that transition, the skills they need.
Matt Hockman:
So with your focus in leadership and supervisors, what's the biggest challenge that's currently facing the safety industry?
Joe White:
I think if you go back, I'd say in the 1990s, primarily in the 1990s, there was a wealth of research that was done in the area of neuroscience. And neuroscience immediately had application. There's a lot of changes that you see in marketing that was made almost instantaneously. We recognized that 85 to 95% of all the decisions we make are based on how we feel, not necessarily what we might think. And so that affective with an A, the affective influence that we have in our decision-making, it's never found its way to safety. And we still have a very traditional approach to safety, very much rooted in operant conditioning, which goes back into the early 1900s and the work that Skinner did. And safety has really got to recognize they've got to apply some of this research that's been discovered. They've got to apply to the practice of safety. So I think the real opportunity specifically is in addressing at-risk behaviors and applying this wealth of information that's coming out of neuroscience.
Matt Hockman:
And with your response, you discussed at-risk behaviors. So how would you define an at-risk behavior?
Joe White:
Well, let me go back and say when I was in safety and in the operational role that I had, the thing that always used to drive me crazy per se, is really the at-risk behaviors. Why would someone take a chance? You invest training, you have procedures, you have rules, all the things that we know are necessary for success and safety, and you still have people that'll take shortcuts. And I know of several fatalities where we went back and looked at specifics and everything that should have been in place was in place, and yet someone still took a shortcut. So the notion of at-risk behaviors to me, and it gets back to the neuroscience as I'd mentioned, the notion of at-risk behaviors is that there's some anticipated benefit or gain that outweighs any perceived cost or consequence. And so when I think about an at-risk behavior, to me that's what it is, but it's really deeply rooted in our past experience. And if we have success taking a shortcut, over time it becomes a habit and we're far more likely to do it over and over.
Matt Hockman:
So it's kind of what motivates somebody to do those things.
Joe White:
Absolutely.
Matt Hockman:
And then learning from them.
Joe White:
Absolutely.
Mike Jernigan:
You mentioned this, and you've spent more than two decades studying this, and I've been honored enough to sit through some of your sessions and hear you speak about it. And you've already sort of spoken about why people take those risks. But what is it that we might be able to do to keep people from taking those unnecessary risks?
Joe White:
Well, it's really not about trying to change what people think. And I know that's counterintuitive because everything we do is really built on knowledge. It's recognizing our affective nature and it's trying to shift perspectives around how we feel. That's a completely different dynamic. Now, talking about LEAD, I mentioned earlier that we started with LEAD about eight years ago, and we really initially were focused on safety. But one of the things we know and understand is that, for example, a supervisor or foreman or lead person, for them to have impact, for them to be able to shift how an employee feels, they have to have influence. That's not a management skill, that's a leadership-pointed skill. So we really have to understand, as I mentioned several times the neuroscience and how you impact an employee's behavior. But if you don't have influence, if you're not respected, you're going to struggle because the traditional management techniques telling people what to think, there's a limit to how effective they are.
And I think about, as I mentioned earlier, some of the serious injuries and fatalities that have occurred. In one particular case, I know there was a railroad coal unloading operator that was on the side of a rail car, which specifically violated training that they had received. They weren't supposed to be on that, but they took that shortcut because they'd been out there unloading 120 rail cars and they were trying to save a little bit of time. They were going to speed up. Their job was to walk the rail to make sure there were no D-raders, nothing obstructing the track. Well, towards the end of the shift, they decided to get on the side of the rail car, rode it into a coal shaker shed, which by the way had a huge sign on it, said narrow clearance. And they were caught between the ladder on the lead rail car and a column inside the coal shaker shed. They were killed.
Now, training had taken place. This individual had demonstrated proficiency. They had lots of experience. And when we did the investigation, what we found, the other coal unloading operators on that shift, they acknowledged doing the same thing. What they couldn't explain is why this individual rode into the coal shaker shed. But I go back to the thought process. The procedures were in place. The individual had been verified on the procedures, they knew the job, they were very experienced, and it wasn't enough. So the question then becomes how do you change how that individual feels about taking that shortcut? That's where we have to go. And it requires influence. And that's leadership. That's not traditional management.
Matt Hockman:
Absolutely. I think you hit the nail on the head right there. So is there an opportunity to advance safety beyond where it is today? And if so, how do we do that?
Joe White:
I say 100%. I think for us we, and I go back and look at marketing. Marketing is really driven by money. So you think about where they're looking for every opportunity to gain an advantage. They've applied this huge amount of information that's been gained from neuroscience. They've applied it and they've advanced it. Most commercials you see on TV today are of an effective nature. They're intended to shift how you feel. Well, if you think about what we have to do in safety, I think we have to really shatter and be willing to take some chances. And I know that's a little bit foreign for what we do, but we have to acknowledge that as humans, we are emotional, we're often irrational, and we've got to be able to navigate that using actual science, not philosophy.
In some cases that's rooted in a 100-year-old information that we may have had in the early 1900s. So it is about learning more. And it's about really being willing to get outside of our, let me just say it this way, we've got to quit going to the same well of knowledge and relying on that and hoping that we're going to get a different outcome.
Mike Jernigan:
It reminds me of that old saying, "Do as I say, not as I do," right? Because we may not want to admit it, but so much of what we all do as a result, the actions we take, they're a result of our emotions.
Joe White:
Absolutely.
Mike Jernigan:
We're emotional creatures, and I think if we're being honest with ourselves, we know that. But if we're trying to get a company to adopt these practices that you're talking about, to shift the way that they think about safety and how they approach their employees, how can we get them to do that?
Joe White:
I think the key is going to be not necessarily safety. I think it's going to be going back to leadership. So we know right now the incoming generation, they really prefer participative leadership, participative being the opportunity to have an input involvement. That's 72% of Gen Z prefers participative leadership. Their least preferred management or leadership method is authoritative or autocratic. Well that's what predominately exists in the industries that we have. So I think for us, it's going to be going back reskilling, upskilling and learning leadership skills, developing influence, recognizing ports of respect and credibility. And I think at that point then we're able to have a completely different discussion around safety. We've got to quit relying exclusively on the what. This is what I need you to know, what I need you to do. And we've got to be willing to have conversations around the why and the how.
Why would someone use their cell phone while driving? Let's have that discussion. I can certainly tell you all the reasons, all the rules and procedures for driving a vehicle. If you use a cell phone for example, we're going to terminate you while you're driving. Let's have a different discussion. Why would someone use a cell phone? Well, they'd use it because of convenience. They can multitask. Let's have that discussion. Because remember, we're trying to shift how people feel about these topics, not change what they know, shift how they feel. And one of the things I said earlier about what's an at-risk behavior, it's a perceived benefit that outweighs any anticipated cost or consequence. The problem we have is that in most cases at-risk behaviors are habits they formed over time.
So if I speed and I do it repeatedly over time and I never get a ticket, it becomes automatic and mindless and subconscious. So it's that at-risk behavior, that's a habit that's so problematic. And the only way we're going to get to that is to have these discussions, these collaborative discussions that really focus on the why and the how. We've got to be willing to go through that. And as I said earlier, we can't always go back to that same wealth of knowledge and do things the way we've always done. It's a different strategy.
Matt Hockman:
And I think when companies see the benefit of changing their thought process on this, it's going to go a long way. But I know there's going to be some hurdles that they're going to have to overcome. So what are some of those hurdles that you've kind of seen when companies are making this transition?
Joe White:
I think the biggest one is going to be the old-school my way or the highway mentality. And we're seeing that. We have four generations. There are a few traditionalists left, those north of 78 years of age at this point in time, but for the most part, I think it's really about pushing back around status quo and really being willing to embrace a new way of doing things. And not everybody's going to be on board with that. So I think the biggest challenge is going to become, it's going to be internal. I think some of it's going to be the deeply ingrained faults, the opinions, the beliefs that some people have.
But I think we've also, we've got to be smart enough where we do have success in trying this more open-minded approach. We've got to celebrate, we've got to share that. We've got to be able to talk about, here's an example of where it worked. So I think those are going to be key, but change is not easy. Only 30% of change initiatives succeed for something like this. It's really about just having executive leadership at the very top saying, this is where we're going. This is what we're going to do. We're not lowering our standards. We're just going to take a slightly different tack or approach on how we do it, and we really want you on board with this initiative. I think that's going to be key.
Mike Jernigan:
So our listeners may not know, but Joe, you and I have worked together in a certain capacity in marketing and of course you with AEU LEAD, and I've had the opportunity to listen to a lot of the things that you have said through sessions at our forums and also through our SOS podcast. But for those people who are listening who may not know, can you tell them how to get access and how they can obtain more information about what you're telling us today?
Joe White:
Sure. I would say if you subscribe to the Supervisor Skills: Secrets of Success podcast, you'll get a lot of the leadership-oriented content because it's all rooted in the same science, if you will. I think being involved with AEU LEAD internal to AEU is also an avenue. If you're a member, it's a service we offer that's free. So it's not anything you're going to have to pay for. But other than that, I think just picking up the phone and calling and having these collaborative opportunities. I think they're key. We don't have all the answers, and I think that's one of the most important things to put on the table up front, is that we don't have all the answers, but we do encourage, we advocate that you collaborate more, you have dialogue more. You're willing to discuss these one-offs that are inevitably going to happen. The other thing that I would say is that I think going forward, what you're going to see is the notion of total well-being not just safety, not just safety and health. I think you're going to see total well-being.
So I think these discussions are going to lead to observations around mental health. You see a shift in someone you're willing to recognize and respond to it more effectively. We cannot put these in silos as if they're completely unrelated. They're not. So I think for us, it's about looking at it more holistically, which then brings the notion of if I'm really able to shift how someone feels about an at-risk behavior, it's not being bound by the clock or the gate that we're working within, they're going to take it home.
So I think it's a new frontier. I think it's exciting. And I think the other thing you're going to notice is that as you develop these leadership skills, as you develop influence, as you earn respect, what you're going to find is that you're going to see improvements across the board. You're going to see your culture improve. You're going to see turnover go down. All of these things are related. It's really about connecting all these dots. So I think if we're able to see the true value in it, I just think it's going to help a company across the board and they're going to be more competitive.
Mike Jernigan:
And again, I would encourage anyone who is listening today, be sure that you subscribe to the Supervisor Skills: Secrets of Success podcast. I mean, I have enjoyed listening to that and I have learned so much from that. So again, I definitely encourage anybody who is interested in really learning more and to have a continual flow of that information, subscribe to that podcast and listen to it because it's extremely valuable and you'll learn a lot more about what you're talking about today.
Joe White:
Appreciate that endorsement.
Mike Jernigan:
You provide a lot of examples. You talk about this in more detail, and it's something I'm excited to share with other people. So I do hope that they subscribe to that podcast
Joe White:
Yeah. And again, appreciate that endorsement. I think again, one of the shifts is the compressed topics. Everything we do is eight to 10 minutes in length, be it the podcast or micro learning. We have them in eight to 10 minutes sound bites. And I think that better aligns with the incoming generation. I think it better aligns with the flexibility that a lot of companies need today. You don't have to have the hours long chalk and talk traditional training that we've had in the past. It's about meeting people where they are, helping them in the moment, and then being able to advance them with a need they have at that specific time.
Matt Hockman:
Then they're not overwhelmed as well.
Joe White:
No, no, not at all. And it's that steady drip. I think that constant reinforcement, steady drip is really key to long-term knowledge.
Mike Jernigan:
Well, I think that's a perfect place to end this discussion today. Guys, I appreciate you joining me. Joe, Matt, thanks so much.
Joe White:
Thank you, Mike. Thank you.